Yo el miércoles me voy con el chaval del video de los PROYECTORES a una presentación de Sony de protección....
Intentaré grabar cosillas e informarme y porque no , hacer algún contacto
A ver qué tal la presentación...
De entrada lo que te puedo decir es que para esto del HDR en proyectores estás prácticamente obligado a una sala completamente dedicada (como amanecer ha comentado más atrás), de lo contrario la experiencia no va a ser lo suficientemente satisfactoria, siempre hablando de HDR, claro.
Después está el tema del plug and play. Esto no es una OLED que te sientas y pones HDR Standar y a disfrutar de un HDR excelente, aquí hay hacer una serie de ajustes precisos, y si el que los hace no sabe muy bien lo que tiene entre manos la imagen se va a resentir mucho.
Yo de momento lo único que he visto interesante en HDR ha sido en una sala completamente dedicada enmoquetada de negro, el resto de lo que he visto, o no me ha parecido lo suficientemente bueno en HDR porque o faltaba contraste por la sala, luz por la lámpara, ajustes correctos, o una combinación sumada de todos estos factores.
Lo digo porque si la presentación no la hacen en una sala verdaderamente acondicionada para HDR y el proyector correctamente ajustado, entro lo que te puedan mostrar en la presentación y tus OLED en modo HDR, habrá un abismo.
Ahí hay varias cosas mal.
Manni01 dijo:@Kris Deering
I was very intrigued by your feedback so I took a bit of time today to investigate MadVR's HDR>SDR conversion. I hadn't looked into it for a while given that until very recent developments a standalone player remained the best option to play UHD Bluray content (at least for those who, like me, only play legitimate content, i.e. my own purchased discs).
Wow, it's moved leaps and bounds. It's now using BT2390 and it gives all the options we need to fine-tune the conversion to perfection. I tried it with a peak value of 200nits (for a peak white of 120), and the result is spectacular. It might need adjustments, I only had a very limited time for testing, but it's very promising.
I've looked at your scene in The Revenant, and if that's what you see with the Radiance Pro (and to some extent the Oppo with the beta f/w, even if it's not 100% there from what I understand), then I had the same revelation you had when you compared your custom curve with the LG OLED
As far as I'm concerned, the custom curves are over. Yes, they provided better results than factory curves, especially gamma D, yes we don't need more than one if we design it properly, but seeing what I see now in MadVR (with the proper parameters) there is no way back: saturation, shadow details, highlights, everything is significantly better.
With MadVR, I only need a BT2020 calibration with a gamma of 2.4, which is super easy to do and the result is stellar. Nothing compared to SDR BT2020 from the UB900, which is full of compromises (and still greatly inferior to a good custom curve). MadVR optimizes the highlights, scanning each frame in real time. It also optimizes the shadow details.
I'm not going to develop any further curves, except maybe a Dolby Cinema Emulation when Calman (or@arve) starts supporting BT2390. But that's not a priority for me anymore.
So here is my new recommendation: if MadVR is an option for you, by all means, take a look at its HDR to SDR conversion. It's the best HDR picture I've seen on my JVC, period. Better than a custom curve, factory ST2084 (especially gamma D) or SDR BT2020.
The main downside is that the Vertex doesn't get the metadata anymore, so it doesn't switch automatically to SDR BT2020, but I'm hoping to find a way to resolve that soon. In any case, the PQ improvement justifies switching manually if necessary. It's that much improved.
Otherwise, I would seriously look into either a Radiance Pro, the Oppo (once the f/w is public) or the new Panasonic 820. Be aware before buying a new player that no model currently supports HDMI 2.1, so if you buy something this year be prepared to buy again next year if you want any of the features/bandwidth of the new standard or a minimal amount of future-proofing.
However, thanks to MadVR's frame by frame analysis, my interest for HDR10+ and Dolby Vision is considerably diminished, if not entirely gone. I still want the 48Gb/s of HDMI 2.1 (if only for 4K60p 12bits 4:4:4), but that's about it.
Don't expect any more comments from me on the custom curves, as if there are any improvements to make it will be with MadVR and/or the Vertex.
Kris, I can't thank you enough for opening my eyes on this. It's really nice to leave all this behind. I can't wait to see what MadVR will do with my 210nits (actual PeakY, so probably a bit more in MadVR) when I get a new lamp
Manni dijo:
Bueno, dice que ha hecho un quick look... Eso está a un par de años luz de una recomendación. Yo llevo un par de meses comparando y sigo prefiriendo el HDR con gammas manuales. De todas formas la conversión SDR de MadVR es a la carta, permite ajustar los picos de nits del dispositivo y mantiene el bt2020. Lo cual está muy bien. Pero yo creo que es más apropiado para máquinas aún más rebeldes que los JVC.
Manni01 dijo:It's always been HDR to SDR conversion. Our displays are not HDR displays. The question is where does the conversion happens (player, video processor, display), and what the consequences are.
With gamma D, the conversion took place into the display. It was crap. The dark gamma control either raised the black floor, killing contrast, or crushed black. It was unusable. And to add insult to injury, the DI was disabled with HDR content.
I preferred for a while the HDR to SDR BT2020 in the UB900 using the Integral. The main positives were being able to use the DI and get our black levels back, the main negative was that it was expecting an SDR display and the highlights were limited to about 100nits real peakY, otherwise it wouldn't be correct as reference white would be too high. Until a slider came later, there was also a significant compromise in the highlights that were clipped fairly low. Still I and others recommended it for a long time, because for a while it was better to do the conversion in the player, as long as it was the UB900 (the Oppo conversion has been buggy for a long time and crushed blacks).
Then I found a way to use Calman to calibrate to HDR10 manually, at about the time Chad B started to experiment as well. We actually did share tricks and opinions at the very beginning of this. This allowed to get better than Gamma D calibration, with peakY as high as the display was capable to, and no raised black floor or crushed black. This was the beginning of custom curves, which have to be designed for each set-up ideally according to vareious factors and taste. I shared a few of them to show people that we could get better than gamma D, but the further you were away from the way from the target of the curve (or from a complete bat cave), the worse the results. So that's what I recommended, to go back to doing the conversion in the display.
Then Arve dropped the A bomb, which transformed a 30mn process (time needed to create a custom curve manually) into a one minute process, allowing to experiment with design, roll off and create even better custom curves. I immediately embraced the process, as the result was better than what I could get with my manual curves, and I recommended that people use the tool to create their own custom curve, or ask someone competent to use it to design one for their set-up and their taste. I created and shared a first Dolby Cinema Emulation curve, so that people could target one single peakY (107 nits) and know they were getting a fairly accurate conversion for that peakY.
I then worked with HD Fury to implement a feature in the Linker (then the Vertex) to allow us to get DI back with HDR content.
Then Lumagen implemented the Intensity Mapping LUT into the Radiance Pro, Oppo made some progress and someone I entirely trust (@KrisDeering
There might be a point in the future where the conversion is better done in the display again, and if that's the case I'll be happy to recommend doing that.
I'm not attached to the present way to do things, whether I came up with it or not. When Arve dropped the A bomb, I was the first to experiment with his tool and recommend it. When Kris dropped the K bomb, I was the first to experiment (with MadVR as I don't have access to a Radiance Pro or an Oppo yet) and recommend a new way. Simply because I'm after the best possible quality and accurate representation. Not after "being right". No one is "right" for very long in this field. It keeps changing at light speed, and will probably keep changing for a couple of years.
So if you're after best PQ and most accurate representation, be open to change and ready to change your ways
