Hinomura Krycek
Bayofilo
O recortas o estiras y deformas la imagen, no hay otra.
UHD Blu-ray y HDR. Lanzamientos y ediciones
- Autor Atreyub
- Fecha de inicio
leonigsxr1000
Miembro habitual
Amigo franjos, el zoom la verdad que solo era "necesario" en el plasma y viendo TDT........en los leds es totalmente innecesario y en los oled pues ya depende de cada uno jejeje 
calibrador
Giouco Piano
Posts muy didácticos e ilustrativos de los grandes maestros de la imagen y vídeo
Stacey Speers es el científico color de laboratorios spectra,l y desarrollador del disco de calibración SPEARS & MUNSIL. Ellos descubrieron el bug chroma en bluray, y reciéntemente el bug BT2020 que traían algunos reproductores como el samsung KS8500. O sea, en estos son los mejores y es gente directamente involucrada en las especificaciones y masterización de contenidos.
Su lectura ayuda a entender lo que está sucediendo con algunas pantallas y proyectores a la hora de representar las imágenes HDR equivocadamente. Son algunos post sueltos en respuesta a las dudas de algunos usuarios sobre por qué en HDR se les aplasta el negro o aparece algo lavado, etc.
STACEY SPEERS
Yes it is real. Nothing would use 1024 levels though as 64-940 is the range that is used. 940 is 10,000 nits. Content is being mastered at 1,000 and 4,000 nits. 1,000 nits on the Sony BVM X300 and up to 4,000 nits on a Dolby Pulsar. The max code value used it based on the max nit level.
Just for your info:
100 nits is code value 509.
1,000 nits is code value 722.
4,000 nits is code value 854.
The majority of the picture information is under 100 nits or 77-509. Notice I use 77 instead of 64, this is because black on the mastering display has been 0.005 nits and not 0 nits. 0.005 is code value 77.
In the end, the display tone mapping algorithm handles the differences. You calibrate your display to its max capability. Then the display handles the rest. You don't adjust brightness or contrast to fix the content. Some displays have good tone mapping and some have poor tone mapping. I have a Sony Z9D and it has great tone mapping. The content has HDR metadata associated with it. This data should be passed to the display so it can know how to deal with the different mastering levels. This is not something you will do in calibration. You don't want to calibrate per disc anyway, that would be a nightmare.
..........................................................
ConnecTED
Hi, here are the Mastering Metadata (Mastering Display Color Volume - Display Luminance) of the movies you mentioned:
....................................................................
STACY SPEERS
The brightness and contrast controls should not exist on an HDR display. It is extremely important that the display knows what its black and white levels are so it can tonemap the incoming content. Tone mapping works on both ends, not just the top end.
Content's black level for HDR is dependent on the display it is mastered on. If they use a Pulsar, its black level is 0.005, if they use an X300, its black level is lower. Then the playback display must then tone map the source content into what the display can do. This is why brightness should not exist. If you adjust brightness, then you are altering the displays bottom end and it won't know how to tone map correctly.
If you have an OLED with true black of 0 nits. The content is mastered on a Pulsar where 0.005 nits is the black level of the content. Then the contents black should not be stretchered down to 0 nits, it should be played at the elevated nits of the mastering display. There will be some displays that stretch the bottom end down to the black of the display. This would be wrong, but it is happening on some displays.
These are the early days of HDR. Probably a couple of more years from displays that start to really get it right. e.g. Most displays today use a panel with gamma. They have to under the gamma as part of the processing pipeline. Once we have native PQ displays, or linear displays like DLP, then you will see a big jump in image quality. This is one reason the BVM X300 looks so much better than any consumer display. A lot of the banding you see now is because these panels are native gamma and not native PQ/linear.
..................................................................
STACEY SPEERS
You should not be touching brightness, tone mapping should take care of displays native black level vs. the black level of the mastering display. This is one area where a lot of consumer HDR displays are not getting it right.
Few consumer displays are properly doing PQ correctly. Right now I consider the Z9D the best consumer HDR display on the market. Its an LCD, so off axis is not great. OLED really shines in off axis. I am looking forward to the day I can replace my projector with a large OLED. The technology is not there yet. I still find my 1080p DLP to show more detail than the current crop of UHD LCOS projectors. I really want a UHD LASER (non-phosphor) HDR projector for the home. Not sure that will ever happen, which is why I will probably go OLED in a few years. The black level / contrast of my DLP sucks compared to JVC and Sony LCOS, but it out resolves them when it comes to detail.
..............................................................
DOUG BLACKNURN
Something missing from the discussion...
Every display capable of HDR is supposed to produce 29.2 foot Lamberts or 100 nits for 50% white and code value 509. If your projector can barely do 29.2 fL with Contrast at max, high lamp mode, iris at maximum opening (auto iris should be turned off when measuring this), HDR mode, etc. And do not use any motion enhancement that adds black-frame insertion since that just darkens the image, there's literally NO WAY for your projector to do any tone mapping to squeeze all the information from code value 510-722 or 510-854 so you just won't see much detail above 50% white, nor will you get much color enhancement into 2020/with DCI gamut. But all is not lost... as mentioned in another post, most of the image is in code values from 64-509. All the pixels above those levels are for reproducing wider color gamut and spectral highlights. And the luminance curve for HDR10 is very different than gamma so you still get the benefit of being able get the benefit of HDR so if you are viewing a well-lit interior shot you can still see normal-looking daylight images through windows to the outside... unlike the SDR gamma curve that causes the scene outside to blow-out either very badly or completely depending on how bright it is outside.
There was mention of HDR not being something for projectors... that's true because "real" HDR is going to require at display capable of at least 500 nits for peak white... well beyond the capability of most home projectors, even if the screen isn't all that big. There is a separate committee working on how HDR should work for projection. But nothing has been released and projector manufacturers are just doing what they think is the right thing to do. Having seen HDR in my room on half a dozen projectors, a 500 nit flat panel TV (Vizio P65-C1) and a 1500-1900 nit (depending on picture mode you select) flat panel TV (Sony XBR-65Z9D) I can say categorically that flat panel HDR at these higher luminance levels leave HDR projection IN THE DUST. Heck the 1500-1900 nit flat panel ($5500) left the 500 nit flat panel ($1800) in the dust (no caps). It's difficult to enjoy HDR on a projector after seeing it on a high-brightness good-quality flat panel. It's difficult to imagine home or cinema projection of HDR because you need SO MUCH LIGHT to make HDR soar. And we all know excess light reflecting off the screen always manages to bounce off something, even if it is a flat black surface, and find its way back onto the screen washing-out the image. But you never know, the projection HDR committe might come up with something that puts projection back in the running... if that happens, the big question will be "Can my existing projector be updated with firmware to work with the new spec
" and nobody knows the answer to that question yet. Anyway... if you have a means of measuring your projector and have a UHD/HDR pattern source, see what you measure for 50% white in HDR10 mode. Then see what you measure for peak white or 100% white... if those two numbers are pretty close, you won't exactly clip, but you will squeeze a LOT of code values down to very few code values so even if tone mapping is properly implemented on your projector, there simply may not be enough "space" above 50% white/100 nits/code value 509 for your projector to do much with all the code values from 510 and up.
......................................................
FUENTE
Stacey Speers es el científico color de laboratorios spectra,l y desarrollador del disco de calibración SPEARS & MUNSIL. Ellos descubrieron el bug chroma en bluray, y reciéntemente el bug BT2020 que traían algunos reproductores como el samsung KS8500. O sea, en estos son los mejores y es gente directamente involucrada en las especificaciones y masterización de contenidos.
Su lectura ayuda a entender lo que está sucediendo con algunas pantallas y proyectores a la hora de representar las imágenes HDR equivocadamente. Son algunos post sueltos en respuesta a las dudas de algunos usuarios sobre por qué en HDR se les aplasta el negro o aparece algo lavado, etc.
STACEY SPEERS
Yes it is real. Nothing would use 1024 levels though as 64-940 is the range that is used. 940 is 10,000 nits. Content is being mastered at 1,000 and 4,000 nits. 1,000 nits on the Sony BVM X300 and up to 4,000 nits on a Dolby Pulsar. The max code value used it based on the max nit level.
Just for your info:
100 nits is code value 509.
1,000 nits is code value 722.
4,000 nits is code value 854.
The majority of the picture information is under 100 nits or 77-509. Notice I use 77 instead of 64, this is because black on the mastering display has been 0.005 nits and not 0 nits. 0.005 is code value 77.
In the end, the display tone mapping algorithm handles the differences. You calibrate your display to its max capability. Then the display handles the rest. You don't adjust brightness or contrast to fix the content. Some displays have good tone mapping and some have poor tone mapping. I have a Sony Z9D and it has great tone mapping. The content has HDR metadata associated with it. This data should be passed to the display so it can know how to deal with the different mastering levels. This is not something you will do in calibration. You don't want to calibrate per disc anyway, that would be a nightmare.
..........................................................
ConnecTED
Hi, here are the Mastering Metadata (Mastering Display Color Volume - Display Luminance) of the movies you mentioned:
....................................................................
STACY SPEERS
The brightness and contrast controls should not exist on an HDR display. It is extremely important that the display knows what its black and white levels are so it can tonemap the incoming content. Tone mapping works on both ends, not just the top end.
Content's black level for HDR is dependent on the display it is mastered on. If they use a Pulsar, its black level is 0.005, if they use an X300, its black level is lower. Then the playback display must then tone map the source content into what the display can do. This is why brightness should not exist. If you adjust brightness, then you are altering the displays bottom end and it won't know how to tone map correctly.
If you have an OLED with true black of 0 nits. The content is mastered on a Pulsar where 0.005 nits is the black level of the content. Then the contents black should not be stretchered down to 0 nits, it should be played at the elevated nits of the mastering display. There will be some displays that stretch the bottom end down to the black of the display. This would be wrong, but it is happening on some displays.
These are the early days of HDR. Probably a couple of more years from displays that start to really get it right. e.g. Most displays today use a panel with gamma. They have to under the gamma as part of the processing pipeline. Once we have native PQ displays, or linear displays like DLP, then you will see a big jump in image quality. This is one reason the BVM X300 looks so much better than any consumer display. A lot of the banding you see now is because these panels are native gamma and not native PQ/linear.
..................................................................
STACEY SPEERS
You should not be touching brightness, tone mapping should take care of displays native black level vs. the black level of the mastering display. This is one area where a lot of consumer HDR displays are not getting it right.
Few consumer displays are properly doing PQ correctly. Right now I consider the Z9D the best consumer HDR display on the market. Its an LCD, so off axis is not great. OLED really shines in off axis. I am looking forward to the day I can replace my projector with a large OLED. The technology is not there yet. I still find my 1080p DLP to show more detail than the current crop of UHD LCOS projectors. I really want a UHD LASER (non-phosphor) HDR projector for the home. Not sure that will ever happen, which is why I will probably go OLED in a few years. The black level / contrast of my DLP sucks compared to JVC and Sony LCOS, but it out resolves them when it comes to detail.
..............................................................
DOUG BLACKNURN
Something missing from the discussion...
Every display capable of HDR is supposed to produce 29.2 foot Lamberts or 100 nits for 50% white and code value 509. If your projector can barely do 29.2 fL with Contrast at max, high lamp mode, iris at maximum opening (auto iris should be turned off when measuring this), HDR mode, etc. And do not use any motion enhancement that adds black-frame insertion since that just darkens the image, there's literally NO WAY for your projector to do any tone mapping to squeeze all the information from code value 510-722 or 510-854 so you just won't see much detail above 50% white, nor will you get much color enhancement into 2020/with DCI gamut. But all is not lost... as mentioned in another post, most of the image is in code values from 64-509. All the pixels above those levels are for reproducing wider color gamut and spectral highlights. And the luminance curve for HDR10 is very different than gamma so you still get the benefit of being able get the benefit of HDR so if you are viewing a well-lit interior shot you can still see normal-looking daylight images through windows to the outside... unlike the SDR gamma curve that causes the scene outside to blow-out either very badly or completely depending on how bright it is outside.
There was mention of HDR not being something for projectors... that's true because "real" HDR is going to require at display capable of at least 500 nits for peak white... well beyond the capability of most home projectors, even if the screen isn't all that big. There is a separate committee working on how HDR should work for projection. But nothing has been released and projector manufacturers are just doing what they think is the right thing to do. Having seen HDR in my room on half a dozen projectors, a 500 nit flat panel TV (Vizio P65-C1) and a 1500-1900 nit (depending on picture mode you select) flat panel TV (Sony XBR-65Z9D) I can say categorically that flat panel HDR at these higher luminance levels leave HDR projection IN THE DUST. Heck the 1500-1900 nit flat panel ($5500) left the 500 nit flat panel ($1800) in the dust (no caps). It's difficult to enjoy HDR on a projector after seeing it on a high-brightness good-quality flat panel. It's difficult to imagine home or cinema projection of HDR because you need SO MUCH LIGHT to make HDR soar. And we all know excess light reflecting off the screen always manages to bounce off something, even if it is a flat black surface, and find its way back onto the screen washing-out the image. But you never know, the projection HDR committe might come up with something that puts projection back in the running... if that happens, the big question will be "Can my existing projector be updated with firmware to work with the new spec
" and nobody knows the answer to that question yet. Anyway... if you have a means of measuring your projector and have a UHD/HDR pattern source, see what you measure for 50% white in HDR10 mode. Then see what you measure for peak white or 100% white... if those two numbers are pretty close, you won't exactly clip, but you will squeeze a LOT of code values down to very few code values so even if tone mapping is properly implemented on your projector, there simply may not be enough "space" above 50% white/100 nits/code value 509 for your projector to do much with all the code values from 510 and up.......................................................
FUENTE
Última edición:
Discord Pie
iOS Developer
Una pregunta de hola y adios rapidita. ¿De las distribuidoras y estudios que están sacando ediciones en UHDBD cuales apoyan al HDR10 y cuales a Dolby Vision?
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Hay muy pocos discos con DV. Lionsgate y Universal sobre todo y alguno de Sony creo.
Son minoría y ni siquiera Disney que ha tenido tiempo para pensárselo lo está metiendo en sus primeras ediciones en disco.
Sin embargo en streaming el apoyo al DV es mayoritario curiosamente.
Son minoría y ni siquiera Disney que ha tenido tiempo para pensárselo lo está metiendo en sus primeras ediciones en disco.
Sin embargo en streaming el apoyo al DV es mayoritario curiosamente.
Claro, porque es mucho más flexible. Hacer una tirada física siempre es más complejo. En Streaming, incluso pueden "parchear" las pelis si ven que no se ven bien (yo me quejé de una en Netflix y la arreglaron, y pude verla como debía ser).
Se podrá criticar todo lo que se quiera al streaming, pero tiene la guerra ganada frente al formato físico. Y lo veremos.
Se podrá criticar todo lo que se quiera al streaming, pero tiene la guerra ganada frente al formato físico. Y lo veremos.
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Sí sí. Pero la convivencia es posible. Lo veremos también.
La gente gasta la pasta en muchas tonterías.
La gente gasta la pasta en muchas tonterías.
calibrador
Giouco Piano
Y que lo digas. Yo mismo voy a comprar un nuevo Apple TV 4K...el viernes si hay en la tienda Apple
Añado. Todos los estudios a excepción de Fox han dado apoyo a DV
Añado. Todos los estudios a excepción de Fox han dado apoyo a DV
Última edición:
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Ninguno.
Discord Pie
iOS Developer
Así habrá recaudado.
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Tampoco salen en España ni guardianes 2 ni cars 3, así que de momento es una decisión estratégica de Disney...
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Hoy es un gran día!
Ese pedazo de título.Hoy es un gran día!
Yo también lo he recibido. En un rato me pongo a verlo.
A disfrutarlo!!!!!
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Amanecer
Miembro habitual
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Parece ser que la gente esta muy contenta , excepto algunos que han tenido algún susto de pixelación según en el foro vecino . Esperamos vuestras impresiones. Aqui dejo una review Blade Runner: The Final Cut Ultra HD Review - AVSForum.comHoy es un gran día!
Y si mañana veis el estreno en cines sería la semana completa.
Un saludo
Pecci
Miembro habitual
King, me interesan tus comentarios sobre Blade Runner, ya que tenemos mismo visualizador y mismo tipo de ajuste. La tengo en el extinto formato HD DVD y aunque no me parece un título tan bueno como todo el mundo dice (para gustos...) si que es verdad que su estética y fotografía es bárbara. Si la diferencia entre el BD y el UHD es notable, igual me animo y me la pillo.
Un saludo
Un saludo
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Copio pego lo que he puesto en mdvd:
Bueno pues en general es una edición excelente. La definición muy buena, el grano está siempre presente pero no es intrusivo, el contraste es excelente con negros profundos y mucha información en sombras, la luz de los neones y prácticamente todas la fuentes de luz generan imágenes espectaculares.
Pero también hay que poner las expectativas en su sitio, es un tipo de imagen que no busca la definición extrema sino una atmósfera envolvente, ensoñadora, cine negro total, con mucho humo y casi todas las secuencias nocturnas o en penumbra.
Luce mucho porque la ambientación, la fotografía, el vestuario, los decorados, etc son top de la Historia del cine, pero en lo que es puramente técnico sigue siendo una película del 82...
Curiosamente todos los planos clásicos con efectos se ven de muerte gracias a que se usó en la época negativo de 65mm y se nota mucho la calidad. También hay pegotes digitales que se introdujeron en el montaje final del 2007, pero salvo que los busques es de las pocas revisiones digitales que apenas se notan.
En resumen a nivel de imagen es la mejor versión que existe de Blade Runner y eso es más que suficiente para cualquier amante de la película.
Lo que no me esperaba para nada es la pista Atmos que han creado. Tremendamente envolvente y con una calidad apabullante. Blade Runner tiene bastantes planos de gente mirando al cielo, de coches voladores, de lluvia, etc que ha sido aprovechado para mover bastante hacia los canales del techo sumado a la música con enorme fidelidad consiguiendo una sensación inmersiva y cualitativa que ya les gustaría a muchas bandas sonoras actuales. Fantástico.
Bueno pues en general es una edición excelente. La definición muy buena, el grano está siempre presente pero no es intrusivo, el contraste es excelente con negros profundos y mucha información en sombras, la luz de los neones y prácticamente todas la fuentes de luz generan imágenes espectaculares.
Pero también hay que poner las expectativas en su sitio, es un tipo de imagen que no busca la definición extrema sino una atmósfera envolvente, ensoñadora, cine negro total, con mucho humo y casi todas las secuencias nocturnas o en penumbra.
Luce mucho porque la ambientación, la fotografía, el vestuario, los decorados, etc son top de la Historia del cine, pero en lo que es puramente técnico sigue siendo una película del 82...
Curiosamente todos los planos clásicos con efectos se ven de muerte gracias a que se usó en la época negativo de 65mm y se nota mucho la calidad. También hay pegotes digitales que se introdujeron en el montaje final del 2007, pero salvo que los busques es de las pocas revisiones digitales que apenas se notan.
En resumen a nivel de imagen es la mejor versión que existe de Blade Runner y eso es más que suficiente para cualquier amante de la película.
Lo que no me esperaba para nada es la pista Atmos que han creado. Tremendamente envolvente y con una calidad apabullante. Blade Runner tiene bastantes planos de gente mirando al cielo, de coches voladores, de lluvia, etc que ha sido aprovechado para mover bastante hacia los canales del techo sumado a la música con enorme fidelidad consiguiendo una sensación inmersiva y cualitativa que ya les gustaría a muchas bandas sonoras actuales. Fantástico.
calibrador
Giouco Piano
Ha salido un poco cara para ser de Warner Bros, a 30.99, pero en Fnac ayer la adquirí en un 3X2 y me salió por solo 21 eur.
Yo no soy fan de la película ni mucho menos. Hay otras de Scott que me gustan bastante más, pero en UHD luce de manera espectacular. ¿Será la definitiva?
Yo no soy fan de la película ni mucho menos. Hay otras de Scott que me gustan bastante más, pero en UHD luce de manera espectacular. ¿Será la definitiva?
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Curiosamente en EEUU está agotada en la mayoría de tiendas incluyendo Amazon. No se sabe si porque Warner ha sacado muy pocas copias o quizá están revisando el stock porque a más de uno le han llegado discos de extras erróneos. Se supone que tienen que estar 1 UHD con el montaje final, 1 BD con el mismo montaje y 2 DVD's de extras...
Yo preferiría que Scott se hubiera jubilado después de hacer Gladiator, sin embargo el cabrón está empeñado a torturarnos hasta que se muera.
Yo preferiría que Scott se hubiera jubilado después de hacer Gladiator, sin embargo el cabrón está empeñado a torturarnos hasta que se muera.